Labour, this is what you chose

by Rob Marchant

The two important days of conference, the first two, have now passed. We have pinched ourselves. We have pinched ourselves again. But no, that really was John McDonnell outlining a fantasy financial plan on Monday, and Jeremy Corbyn giving the Leader’s Speech on Tuesday.

Let me just say that again. Jeremy Corbyn giving the leader’s Speech. Jeremy Corbyn, Leader of the Labour party.

No matter how many times we say those words, it still beggars belief. Only four months ago, it would have been inconceivable.

How long ago that now seems. What happy, carefree days were those.

For those of us who have sat and watched dozens of leader’s speeches, mostly at times when Labour was actually running the country, it seems a strange, parallel universe. You get to know when a party is at a low ebb, just as when William Hague suffered his disastrous four years at the helm of the Tories.

But this is different: Labour’s current convulsions have not resulted in a moderate leader trying to rein in restive backbenchers on the fringes of the party. They have resulted in the election of a leader who is from those fringes. And a kitchen cabinet involving Unite and members of the hard left from outside the Labour party, which is likely to be more extreme – and certainly more brutal – than the man himself.

The Tories managed to pull themselves back, although it took most of a decade. But Labour’s case is that much worse, one wonders if they can pull it off at all.

Like any person in denial after a heavy loss, Labour’s reaction, especially within the narrow political circles which surround a party conference, has been to sit, smiling and unblinking, and pretend that everything is fine. It is not fine. As Telegraph journalist Iain Martin put it,


Activist comments on Twitter have been of the “kindly grandfather”, “big tent” variety. They are, frankly, deluded.

This peace-loving, kindly grandfather, let us not forget, is against NATO intervention, to prevent the ongoing genocide of his own people by Bashar Assad in Syria. He has no problem, however, with Russian intervention. But there is one place his leadership is taken perfectly seriously. His ascent has been greeted happily by PressTV, mouthpiece of the Iran’s brutal regime. Not least because he is a former presenter for the channel, but also because he advocates for the regime’s involvement in Syria.

And as for the big tent, we should remind ourselves that he has been in office for two-and-a-half weeks. The Corbyn leadership has barely had time to appoint a Shadow Cabinet, let alone start shaping the party of the next five years.

We know how the far left move, because history has taught us. There will be cuckoo-like moves against moderates, you can count on it. In fact, it started last week with Rochdale MP and Corbyn critic Simon Danczuk. The only reason it hasn’t started in anger yet is that they haven’t had time. And it’s the kitchen cabinet you should worry about, not Corbyn himself.

Well, Labour, this is what you chose. Let’s see how you feel by next year’s conference.

Rob Marchant is an activist and former Labour Party manager who blogs at The Centre Left

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50 Responses to “Labour, this is what you chose”

  1. Robert says:

    I am not on the hard left of the Labour Party but I am quite happy with the Corbyn leadership so far. He sounds like a moderately left of centre Labour leader to me.

  2. Madasafish says:

    Robert said:
    I am quite happy with the Corbyn leadership so far. He sounds like a moderately left of centre Labour leader to me.”

    I agree 100%.

    Incompetent with money issues.
    Denies immigration is a problem – wants open door policy.
    Just like the last one – Ed Miliband. But can eat a bacon sandwich.

  3. drcidwndi says:

    Blah blah blah, yes I did choose Corbyn and on the whole I’m happy with his kitchen cabinet but could have well done without Antony’s best mate Charlie.
    What you utterly fail to realise is that people are fed up with the top down do as we say not as we do supermarket sound bite politics of lies and deceit.
    There is a hunger for real debate and the right left dichotomy of old just doesn’t cut it anymore. The public aren’t stupid we just increasingly decide to not play the game and be good sheeple happy to put up with more bullshit from the ruling elites who never ever seem to take any of the pain but plenty of gain.
    If people had listened to all the naysayers we wouldn’t have the co-operative movement, Trade Unions, TUC, universal suffrage and the list goes on.
    But what troubles me most about people like you is all the negativity that spews out and your absolute belief that you are right and 254,000 people are idealistic idiots without understanding it isn’t about Corbyn so much as the fact that by selecting Corbyn as leader the narrative has changed and we are now discussing alternatives which lets face it would not be happening if ANY of the other candidates had won it would just have been more of the same.

  4. Cass says:

    Several things worry me as a centre-left regular door-knocker. Even if we all get behind JC initially which is far from probable as contrary to the beliefs of some we all have principles, there will be times when large parts of the active party can’t support the leader and will stay at home rather than argue vote-losing policies.

    As with JC refusing to compromise his principles during Blair’s leadership, a great many of our MP’s will not compromise theirs during his leadership. They don’t want to lie and I genuinely believe they don’t want to undermine him either, so many of our best minds and voices will remain quiet on the side lines restricting themselves to campaigning on local issues. That’s a tragedy when the country is crying out for a strong opposition.

    Those who do put themselves forward will find themselves questioned by the media on subjects where they’re known to differ from the leadership. I’ve already lost count of the number of awkward, shuffling interviews with perfectly able shadow ministers and this will go on and on.

    Then as you say there’s the left. I’ve been on the end of their tactics at branch level before and they crop up with nauseating frequency making meetings unbearable and driving away good members till they seize control. They always do this. They’ve begun with places on the NEC changing hands already and with a new influx of decent, passionate left-wingers (who are very welcome I might add) unfamiliar with the way the party works they’ll find enough useful idiots to do their work. I don’t mean this as an insult as I was a naïve useful idiot twenty-five years ago who gave my vote to the overthrow of a decent set of branch officers because I knew no better!

    I see only two likely outcomes of this; a split with a new party formed and a resulting fragmented left vote or an attempted coup by the centrists which will be disastrous for them and for the party as a whole. The Tories must be delighted.

    I think the only workable outcome is if JC decides he can’t do the job and walks away in which case we can find a good compromise candidate and begin to rebuild but that is a decision he must take without appearing to be pushed.

    The fact that we are even asking these questions and discussing it after only two weeks is a tragic reflection of what we’ve got ourselves into.

  5. @ drcidwndi,

    Yes I couldn’t agree more. We do want real debate. If anyone wants intervention in Syria they should explain why they think it will succeed this time when so many interventions have failed in the past. We remove Gadaffi and Saddam but then we’ve no idea what we do next. We end up with people who are much worse than the ones we’ve deposed.

    We propose renationalising the railways. But even though they were originally nationalised when the country was broke after WW2 that’s suddenly now too expensive! If we propose a modest amount of PQE for social purposes that now going to cause hyperinflation – even though £375 billion was found to bail out the banks without any real problem at all.

    So we’ve had enough of the old thinking. Its led us into the mess were in now. Those who disagree should engage constructively or find another party which is happy to carry on in the bad old ways.

  6. paul barker says:

    I would reccomend the article by Peter Kellner on where Labour is at now. Its a bit long & I am unsure now how to find it. Essentially his point is that because of its peculiar origins as a Moral Crusade Labour has never had to decide whether it accepts a Free Economy/Capitalism or not. Neither version of Clause 4 explicitly says that Private Ownership is good or bad. Thats how Labour has historically been able to give a home to both Marxists & Social Democrats.
    The election of Corbyn has changed everything because Labour is now defintely moving towards an Anti-Capitalist position. It will be a long process of course & may even go into reverse at some point but, for now the direction of travel is set.
    That is why Labour moderates are so angry, so “negative” & its why many on the Soft Left dont understand what that anger is about.
    The analogy with a Marriage in the process of breaking down is quite a good one, its already reached the stage where each side uses the same words to mean different things & each has a different memory of what was promised.

  7. steve says:

    Rob: “What happy, carefree days were those.”

    Opportunities for ‘communication consultants’ and corporate lobbyists must already be greatly diminished. And yesterday’s people often reflect: they are not long, the days of wine and roses.

    Instead of crying into your beer, perhaps you should consider a career change, Rob?

  8. David Brede says:

    Since his speech yesterday another 2000 or so people have joined the Labour Party.

    You are no doubt aghast. Where are they coming from. Haven’t we had all the lefties already ?

    Clearly not. The party is changing. The country wants some thing new.

    You are stuck in the 1990’s.

    Embrace it.

  9. john riches says:


    I can understand you’re disappointment, but why are you spewing out ill-informed bile. People can see through it immediately.

    I read ‘He has no problem, however, with Russian intervention’ just as Jon Snow on Channel 4 News told Corbyn that Russia had intervened, and what was his snap opinion on it? Corbyn said ‘they’re wrong’.

    Of course Iran has to be part of a solution in te middle east; in what world do you live in that might exclude them?

    And don’t take notice of what anybody from the increasingly deperate Telegraph says.

  10. Anna says:

    This comment at the guardian somes up everything ,that those who feel that Jeremy at least isn’t a Continuity, Miliband/Brown/Blair, is , me inclusive

  11. Tafia says:

    Stop bloody whinging. It is what it is. Accept it and make it work.

  12. Henrik says:

    @Tafia: “Stop bloody whinging. It is what it is. Accept it and make it work.” – or, perhaps, stand off to one side, guffawing and waiting patiently for the nonsense to stop and the Labour Party to get back to the business of presenting a compelling vision of how things might look if people were to vote for it again.

    Entertaining as the Corbynshchina is for the spectators, I do hope, for the sake of the UK, that you chaps get all this stuff out of the way soon. Unfettered Tories without an Opposition are never a great idea.

  13. historyintime says:

    The awful reality of JC being leader is starting to sink in. People need to stay cool for a while though. Then extract him from the leadership. Hopefully through a soft left/centre/right consensus that he’s just not up to it.

  14. Rob maybe you should take some time to look at what has happened. Maybe a little bit of introspection is in order. You could start with why you failed to foresee that your candidate would only get 4.5% and why the dislike for New Labour candidates now affects not only the public, but also the party membership. You need to answer those question if you want to rebuild an opposition to the leadership.

  15. John p Reid says:

    There seems to be the ,it’s alright for labour to lose the next election, on Zoe Ailliams, the magic money tree does exist view,as it’s a moral victory, ok there’s the homeless in the streets again ,now the Tories are back in, but we’re ok as we’re happy a get young men and women who were rebels when we were students

    There’s the quite like a Trade unions, of Luke Akehurst Labour first, Dan Hodges Compass, Rod Liddle Blue labour, or Gareth Thomas of the co-op, who liked Ed miliband at first,went off him

    And there’s the John Mcternan, Lance Price, Phil Collins, John Rentoul, walking around because they see the majority of the public think the current Labour Party,as it’s being presented is nuts, and they can say told you so, when we have our worse defeat ever in 2020

    The middle group is, the only one who’s concerned if we do have our worse defeat ever in 2020″ we may never recover,and that never recovering,is something that matters to those who suffer under the Tories and are the have nots,

  16. Ryland1 says:

    two points – First, the majority of new people to the party are new to politics and are turning up at meetings at all levels of the parties because they are enthused by JC. I suspect these people might have something to say if the PLP organise some sort of coup. My local CLP meeting last week had more people present than any in the last 5 years with the MP repeatedly put on the spot for the PLP not supporting Corbyn. I suspect this will continue and grow in intensity if the PLP do not support Corbyn.

    second point = who is in the kitchen cabinet from outside the party? name names!

  17. Matt London says:

    Ryland1 says: ” majority of new people to the party are new to politics and are turning up at meetings at all levels of the parties because they are enthused by JC. I suspect these people might have something to say if the PLP organise some sort of coup. My local CLP meeting last week had more people present than any in the last 5 years with the MP repeatedly put on the spot for the PLP not supporting Corbyn. I suspect this will continue and grow in intensity if the PLP do not support Corbyn.”

    But the PLP were elected on the basis of the Labour manifesto, not on the basis of Mr Corbyn’s views.

  18. paul barker says:

    @ad, thanks, that was the article I meant, at the New Statesman.

    The title of Kellners peice “Corbyns Opponents are running out of road” sums up the Labour moderates problem. Labour is moving to an Anti-Capitalist position & has no place for the moderates, they can leave The Party or leave politics.

  19. Sean says:

    What has become very clear very quickly is the political hostility of the majority of the Labour MPs to Corbyn’s election. If Corbyns wins in 2020, he will find – with the present stock of Lab MPs on the Tory wing of the Labour Party – that he will not be able to get his programme through. This stock of pale blue Tories would vote with the Tories rather than vote with Corbyn. The only possible solution is mandatory re-selection in the Constituency Labour Parties to turf out the “enemy within” and put in place candidates who would support a Corbyn government. What is required – in a manner of speaking – is a political season of the “long knives” to get the “Red Tories” out of the LP. Excepting John McDonnell, most of the shadow front bench is opposed to Corbyn. They need to go and be replaced with socialists.

  20. Sean says:

    PS The Labour Party today is effectively two separate parties : Those who voted for Corbyn and those who didn’t who really belong in the ranks of the Liberal Democrats or the Tory Party. Kendall and Cooper would not look out of place at Cameron’s cabinet table.

  21. Nick Wall says:

    Yes, this is who Labour have chosen.

    In overwhelming numbers, members and supporters have voted to break with the past, to elect a leader noted for his principle, his honesty, his decency, and his integrity. And he’s repaid this trust. In the best speech by a Labour leader in living memory, he showed genuine generosity and respect to his political opponents in the party, and his commitment to a democratic process for deciding policy. If you want to see what the Labour Party of the future will look like, don’t look at Corbyn – look at the membership.

    I’ve spoken to many people outside Labour’s ranks who are heartened at the changes they’ve seen in the last few weeks. In every CLP there must be dozens of new members, many of them young, others with good campaigning experience. Surely the priority should be to build on the excitement and goodwill that exists now, and the growing activist base, to build membership and support for the Party’s values.

    It’s a myth that socialists are joining Labour in order to wage war on the self-described “moderates”. We’re joining to support Corbyn and be part of this great movement for change. There will be many debates and arguments along the way, but hopefully genuine disagreements can be respected. The campaign against Simon Danczuk, as I understand it, is motivated not by his political views but by the fact that he’s brought the party into disrepute through various actions which include repeating malicious allegations that have been proven to be false.

  22. Sean says:

    PPS If Labour in power means more Blairite Thatcherism then there is no point in being in power. No point in wasting shoe leather to go to the polling station. That is why people voted Tory at the last election. They voted for the real thing, not an “Aldi” version of it. It was absolutely nothing to do with the media-flogged “economic management”. People voted for Coke rather than the Aldi-ised version of it. The Blairites keep bleating that Corbyn is unelectable but why simply elect another Tory government with a “Labour” tag? The Blairites are the worst kind of unprincipled opportunists who should be driven out of the LP. Election defeat on the basis of socialist principles is always preferable to a “Labour” govt which is pursuing an austerity programme and is thoroughly anti-working class and anti-socialist to its core. We need to fight for the election of a Labour govt on the basis of a socialist programme. Not on the basis of more generic Thatcherism.

  23. Madasafish says:

    By their own words you shall judge them:

    Nick Wall :
    It’s a myth that socialists are joining Labour in order to wage war on the self-described “moderates”.”

    And the next post:

    The Blairites are the worst kind of unprincipled opportunists who should be driven out of the LP”

  24. Sean says:

    Madasafish, Nick is correct. Kicking out the Tories in the LP is only one aspect of the struggle for socialism. But not the only one. Socialists are in the LP to fight for socialism. And if we have individuals within our ranks who oppose socialism then they must go. Seriously, would Keir Hardie recognise the colour of most of the PLP as “red”? We need to get them out. Otherwise Corbyn will be stymied at every point if elected in 2020.

    I am just relieved that the Labour Party is no longer led by the likes of Blair. There are many people in this land and across the globe who consider him to be a fugitive from the International Criminal Court at The Hague.

  25. Sean says:

    If you are going to redact people’s posts or simply not permit totally legitimate posts in the comments section, then is there any point in people actually posting them? People want to democratically contribute to the discussion – as Corbyn insists- without being censored. You have redacted one of my posts and blocked the other. Why? This is the sort of Labour Party we must struggle to move away from.

  26. Sean says:

    Apologies. I withdraw the previous post. The “redacted” post has suddenly and mysteriously appeared in the comments section. It is my last post anyway. Once again, my apologies.

  27. Mike Homfray says:

    That’s it, Rob. We chose him.
    And I am perfectly happy with that choice.
    No-one is forcing you to stay in the party. If you prefer something more akin to a centre party or even right of centre, there are plenty of choices for you.

  28. Helen says:

    “What is required – in a manner of speaking – is a political season of the “long knives” to get the “Red Tories” out of the LP. Excepting John McDonnell, most of the shadow front bench is opposed to Corbyn. They need to go and be replaced with socialists.”

    How is this a “kinder politics” and/or a “democratic system”? Why don’t you follow the leader you support? This is what gets left wing politics a bad name.

  29. Tafia says:

    Sean, It’s not live posting. There is sometimes a significant delay in comments appearing.

    Probably the editors do it to minimise SPAM and ‘bots’

  30. Ex labour says:

    Once again we are seeing the echo chamber politics of the labour left. Just as they did with Miliband they are convincing themselves that the public want far left socialism and Corbyn in particular when in fact the public in a poll today has voted him the most unpopular opposition leader for decades. Just like two alcoholics talking they think the answer is one more beer, when it is in fact to stop drinking. The defeat at the last GE is only months old yet is a distant memory. Lessons have not been learned and the current view of activists that Labour were not left enough flies in the face of public opinion. If Corbyn makes it to 2020 then you will find out exactly what the public think and feel.

  31. Madasafish says:

    It’s nice to see the new Labour supporters in their true colours.

    Implacable in their Opposition – not to the Tories – but to anyone in Labour whom they disagree with.

    Obviously disciples of Stalin..The “new kinder politics” has passed them by.

  32. John P Reid says:

    I know sean said he wouldn’t reply but I must point out, A maybe he feels that McDonnell wouldn’t look out of place at a SWP meeting
    And many people who voted Cirbyn,voted Cooper second choice

  33. LeftIsForward says:

    The parliamentary Labour party needs a radical realignment with the views of its members.

    This is what we chose, and we are proud thereof.

  34. Sean says:

    Thanks for the info Tafia and most of us have fought Stalinist politics all our lives Madasafish. I think Blair’s machine was closer to Stalin than Corbyn’s will ever be. But Helen, how will a rejuvenated LP get its left social democratic/socialist policies/programme through parliament if – assuming a Lab majority – the majority or even a numerically significant minority is opposed to these policies? They will vote with the Tories. A Corbyn govt will be stymied from the start. Now if people are on the Tory wing of the LP (Kendall and her supporters in the leadership election), then you will try to foment as much trouble as possible for JC. The LP is full of entryists. It is a struggle for socialism. If you are in the LP and are opposed to socialism (you want capitalism to continue) then you really should expect opposition from socialists within it

  35. Sean says:

    PS This is why – echoing what LeftIsForward is suggesting – it is absolutely VITAL that JC introduces MANDATORY re-selection of all parliamentary candidates for all CLPs and all candidates are in place before 2020. JC needs to move very quickly on this after the opposition on Trident coming from his shadow ministers. If he does not do this – in order to reflect the new social and political composition of the CLPs – he is heading for trouble with his PLP if he gets a majority in 2020. Also, a “Revolution” in the party machine is required so that it cannot be used to roadblock JC and his supporters. CLPs and Party machine : these are the immediate questions which JC needs to resolve before all else.

  36. john P Reid says:

    Sean Kendall today has said that ,her and her wing aren’t going anywhere they’ve bene in the party for 25 plus years,
    and they aren’t entryists, and if joining the labour party to try to o get power thern she pleads guilty as charged
    several of the Kendall supporters, Lord Glasman, Rowenna davis Gloria de Piero, Stehpen Timms, Gavin Shukar voted for Ed Miliband last time ,as they’re not on the right, in fact Blue Labour isn’t neo liberal.

    and the idea that Soicalism dont’t include capitalism,is daft there has always been capitalism,in the labour, party, we’re not communists,the idea that Corbun will ever win is silly,ma nd why do you say that Kendalls supporters willvote Tory?
    sean if Blair had a small majoirty,and corbyn voted agaisn thim 500 times, then you would have wanted him deselected,

  37. Madasafish says:

    All I read is aligning the Party to the interests of the members.

    That is understandable and desirable if the members are a reflection of the UK voters.

    Strangely enough, there is lots of evidence to suggest they are anything but. and

    I therefore assume that those who support such a move are either stupid or ignorant or want to lose the next General Election .

  38. Ex labour says:


    you seem to be advocating some kind of North Korean dictatorship. Anyone in the PLP should be removed if they disagree with JC ? What next, the firing squad for none believers ?

    I’m sick and tired of the lefts hypocrisy. They are full of virtue signallers who want the public that they are the compassionate ones, and yet here it is for all to see that there is nothing more vicious and Stalinist than the left scorned. If the Tories were saying this kind of thing the left would be in full cry.


  39. Robert says:

    Ex labour you said you left because of Blair or was it Brown, now they have gone your still moaning, if your sick of the left imagine how the left feels of the right

  40. Ex Labour says:

    @ Robert

    I decided to leave after 30 years when Broon took over to be factual. As for Blair he started well but lost the plot near the end but he delivered 3 labour victories which counts for nothing apparently.

    My point is that the extreme left is totally hypocritical and we see at the Tory conference already that journalists have been spat on and female delegates threatened with rape by your new found “supporters” or are they just the lefts fascist thugs ?

    Are you proud of them Robert ? Is this the new kinder politics from the Corbynistas ?

  41. Sean says:

    Democracy in the Labour Party must be a grassroots democracy. All CLPs must have the democratic right to select and/or remove their candidates for Parliament and Municipal elections. Imposing candidates fron on high is not democracy. It is – as Ex-Labour would agree – North Korean style politics. Real, Genuine democracy is an ongoing daily movement of people deciding the direction of their lives. Not a once every five years ballot box. That is socialist democracy and not a capitalist democracy which is simply a justification for the rule of capital and its class of owners

    @john p read : “There has always been capitalism”. Where did you study your history John? Looks like you’re in need of a refresher.

    @madasafish : the point of a party is to persuade the electorate of your position. Not to simply and bovinely follow so-called public opinion which is manufactured by the print and broadcasting media of the capitalist class. Power but not on a Tory austerity programme which is what the Tory wing of the LP would like to see

    @ex-Labour : I wish Kendall, Cooper and Co would become “ex-Labour”. Blairism has been a complete disaster for working class communities across this land. A continuation of Thatcherite neo-liberalism. And yes, I am working class.

  42. Chris says:

    @Ex Labour

    Don’t let the lack of any evidence stop you from getting on your high horse! The people who will be proud of the gobbing and rape threats are the tory plumbers who are ratfucking their own conference.

  43. John P Reid says:

    Sean ,you did read my comment there has always been capitalism ,in the Labour Party, didn’t you

    Like you I’m working class, but maybe you haven’t asked the working class why they voted Thatcher or Cameron this time

  44. Ex Labour says:

    @ Sean

    Care to answer the point I made ?


    I bow to your intelligence.

  45. Sean says:

    “Conflict is the engine of progress”

    Karl Marx

  46. Sean says:

    @john p reid “Capitalism has always existed” Care to answer my question about your bizarre understanding of human history??

    Capitalism has NOT always existed. And neither has the capital-form or the commodity-form. Here is a very quick history lesson for you John of which you are obviously in need. The anthropologists think that modern humankind is at least 60K years old. Some say the immediate species ancestors left Africa approximately 200K years ago. Private property is no more than 5 to 10 K years old. For the greater part of human history, humanity lived either a nomadic hunter-gatherer existence of a settled pastoral/agrarian existence based on common ownership. Capitalism as an integrated social system in the means of production and distribution dates from the beginning of the 16th century in England. Capital existed in ancient societies (which were NOT capitalist) in the form of commodity and money capital (trade and usury) but only in the pores and peripheries of these societies. The commodity form only emerged when mankind has reached the historical stage when a surplus could be produced which was no more than 10K years ago. Ancient and feudal societies – for your information – were not capitalist societies. John, do your homework before you start making statements about human history because you are making a complete fool of yourself.

  47. Sean says:


    “humanity lived either a nomadic hunter-gatherer existence of a settled pastoral/agrarian existence based on common ownership”

    Should read “humanity lived either a nomadic hunter-gatherer existence OR a settled pastoral/agrarian existence based on common ownership”

    “The commodity form only emerged when mankind has reached the historical stage when a surplus could be produced which was no more than 10K years ago.”

    Should read : “The commodity form only emerged when mankind had reached the historical stage when a surplus could be produced (which was no more than 10K years ago) and therefore had produce to actually trade. Only when humanity had reached this stage could the products of labour (initially incidentally) take the form of commodities.

    @john p reid : a study of Marx would educate you John

  48. Sean says:

    @john p reid.

    John, your OP was poorly punctuated with imprecise grammar which has led to a misunderstanding. What you meant to write was that there has always been political support for capital in the LP. That is, of course, correct. However, the original purpose of the LP and Keir Hardie was to represent the interests of working class people in Parliament and head for a peaceful reform of the capitalist system out of existence. There have always been socialists and Marxists in the LP since its inception and foundation. Keir Hardie would have seen Blairism as a form of Toryism. Blair’s position was essentially neo-liberal, Thatcherism with a PR sneer. There was nothing socialist about it. That is why he dumped Clause 4

    It is obvious that you are for the continuation of capitalism. I am for its abolition and replacement with a socialist society. There is an unbridgeable chasm between us. I cannot see the point in continuing with the exchange between us. You are obviously opposed to real socialism. The battle is really for the heart and soul of the LP. Socialism or Blairism? You for the latter, I for the former.

    By the way, Clause IV was originally drafted by Sidney Webb in November 1917 and adopted by the party in 1918. Not Ramsay MacDonald as you write in another post on this blog. Why you slotted in MacDonald, only you know. Do you have a Wikipedia shortcut?

  49. John p Reid says:

    To quote Betnard Breslaw we have been lied too and the biggest liar was Marx, by the way, as Denis healey unilateralist, against IRAQ wants to leave the EU backed Cooper as leader,and as Theresa mays views on the refugee crisis are far removed from Coopers, I can hardly see Cooper at a Cameron Cabinet table,

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